Curse

The Great Al · Jun 30, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

After playing Oblivion, and Fable, and seeing the videos for Diablo III, Guild Wars seems so much more limited in what you can do, combat wise. Also, IMO much more skill is involved if you take dice rolling out of the equation. Would anyone want to see GW go in this direction? Does taking dice rolling out even work for an MMO?

(Title edited for accuracy)

Alex Morningstar · Jun 30, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Uh... what is this dice-rolling you speak of? When I think of dice-rolling, I think of nerds sitting around a table rolling their 26 sided dice and playing D&D.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jun 30, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

guild wars does not play dice with the universe

Master Ketsu · Jun 30, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I think he is referring to the random chance game mechanics that plague MMO's, such as the dervish scythe for example which randomly deals 9~40 damage, causing the same attack skill to do 30 damage one swing and 60+ the next. A dervish who gets lucky can spike a target for a lot more then he is normally capable of. Or with skills like natural stride - 50% chance to block. If a ranger got lucky he could block every shot while using it.

In an action game these luck % chances are usually gone and replaced by actual mechanics that require input from the player - like having to aim at an enemies head in order to score a critical hit or having to press a button when hit in order to block.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jun 30, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

I think he is referring to the random chance game mechanics that plague MMO's, such as the dervish scythe for example which randomly deals 9~40 damage, causing the same attack skill to do 30 damage one swing and 60+ the next. A dervish who gets lucky can spike a target for a lot more then he is normally capable of. Or with skills like natural stride - 50% chance to block. If a ranger got lucky he could block every shot while using it.

In an action game these luck % chances are usually gone and replaced by actual mechanics that require input from the player - like having to aim at an enemies head in order to score a critical hit or having to press a button when hit in order to block.

diablo2, an action rpg, had items with % chance to cast a spell or something on hit. it also had damage ranges.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 30, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

diablo2, an action rpg, had items with % chance to cast a spell or something on hit. it also had damage ranges.

True, and note that the OP said Diablo 3 not Diablo 2. And that is just a guess through the Gameplay teaser that Blizzard has for D3. I think that D3 will still have % chances, as there should be, makes it a little more realistic to have 75% chance to block instead of 100% chance to block.

As for the whole "Action RPG" for GW2, it's impossible to know, but it would be lovely to see especially since it is uncommon in many RPG games. I do think it is unlikely though, but it would be nice to at least have a "press to attack once" or "attack while pressing to attack continuously" thing like in Diablo, instead of click once attack forever which is in GW1.

All else I can say is wait and see. And hope.

Sirius-NZ · Jun 30, 2008, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Perhaps more likely than you think?

But I wouldn't like to guess one way or the other. ArenaNet haven't really dropped any hints towards how the new mechanic will work. It's a safe bet, though, that you will not be hacking through 20+ monsters at once. By yourself.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jun 30, 2008, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

True, and note that the OP said Diablo 3 not Diablo 2.

True, and note that i was responding to the person i quoted in my post, and not the OP. the quoted person said that action games generally favor FPS type skills such as headshot=critical hit over % chances and random effects. i said that diablo 2, an action rpg, had random effects.
while we're on the topic of the OP, he said is it possible that GW2 will be an action rpg, and that he wanted less % chance stuff. diablo 2 was an action rpg and had random effects. GW2 can have %chance stuff and still be an action rpg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius-NZ

Perhaps more likely than you think?

But I wouldn't like to guess one way or the other. ArenaNet haven't really dropped any hints towards how the new mechanic will work. It's a safe bet, though, that you will not be hacking through 20+ monsters at once. By yourself.

actually i believe anet has stated that gw2 will be solo-able, and that there would probably be some type of difficulty scaling when more people grouped together, quite like the mechanics in the game you seemed to be refering to when you said that you won't be hacking through 20+ monsters by yourself.

GoodApollo1234 · Jun 30, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

I think it'd be nice to a point, but that's really what separates GW from typical hack and slash RPG's like Diablo. These "action" RPG's like Diablo are definitely intended for an audience that likes some style mixed in with their action, which is fine, but how much is too much? When your guy is jumping 50ft in the air and killing 200+ monsters in minutes, that's when it gets absurd.

So my point: I would like to see a bit more action in GW2 with running, jumping, and possibly even attack combos that are separate from the skill bar (now that I think of it, that'd be pretty awesome), BUT I don't want GW to turn into a meaningless gorefest like Diablo that requires nothing more than a decent mouse-hand.

I like my fantasy with a touch of realism.

Sirius-NZ · Jun 30, 2008, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Um, it's just that massive-scale slaughter has never been the intention of Guild Wars. Your characters are actually relatively evenly matched with the enemies. Now, while the solo system is likely to tilt that balance somewhat in your favour, I'm still expecting GW2 to be a little more tactical and to have a slower pace.

Absurd can be fun, but honestly that kind of game balance is exactly what Diablo is for. GW is more about the RPG and story, and I would prefer/expect it to stay that way; when I want carnage I'll play D3, and when I want strategy I'll play GW2.

Div · Jun 30, 2008, 08:51 AM // 08:51

GW2 will never be as awesome as D3 in terms of the action involved! Simply because that's not their direction.

Panais · Jun 30, 2008, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

After playing Oblivion, and Fable, and seeing the videos for Diablo III, Guild Wars seems so much more limited in what you can do, combat wise. Also, IMO much more skill is involved if you take dice rolling out of the equation. Would anyone want to see GW go in this direction? Does taking dice rolling out even work for an MMO?

(Title edited for accuracy)

where did u get D3 footage? nothing has been released from blizzard.

Arkantos · Jun 30, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panais

where did u get D3 footage? nothing has been released from blizzard.

Blizzard released information the 28th. Screenshots, 2/5 professions, 20 minute gameplay video, and a cinematic trailer. Click here.

Hell, every Blizzard site you visit you get the Diablo 3 ad. They even announced it on the WoW site.

Anyways, no. They'd have to completely rework the game in order to go that direction.

Glider of chaos · Jun 30, 2008, 12:21 PM // 12:21

I just don't get it.

Am I the only one who is not exited about D3? Videos are meh IMO. Gameplay is repetitive and boring.

Oblivion, Fable? Those games are a joke. Check Severance: Blade of Darkness to see what good combat looks like.
edit: Devil May Cry 3/4 will do too

Sirius-NZ · Jun 30, 2008, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider of chaos

Am I the only one who is not exited about D3?

Pretty much. Sorry!

Abedeus · Jun 30, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

I just don't get it.

Am I the only one who is not exited about D3? Videos are meh IMO. Gameplay is repetitive and boring.

Oblivion, Fable? Those games are a joke. Check Severance: Blade of Darkness to see what good combat looks like.
edit: Devil May Cry 3/4 will do too

And yet you play GW, that has repetitive gameplay too.

Phoenix Tears · Jun 30, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

I personally hope really that the combat system in GW2 will be significantly improved over GW1.

When we look at the boring silly combat system of Guild Wars 1, that one is somewhat of lullabying, that you could fall asleep really quick of it watching it.
You see your characters perform ever nonstop only the same moves, the combat system of GW1 looks so, as if some childs play with their Toy Soldiers, so unspectacular and rigidly does the combat system of GW1 come over.

What GW2 really neads is a fresh wind with a complete new combat system, giving the game real action and thus meaning giving the game the flair of an Action RPG- yes !! Combat System like you see them in Console Action RPG's like the Drakengard Series or Chaos Legion, ya even such traditional RPG's like Rogue Galaxy but esppecially Star Ocean 3 show us, how Combat System can look really cool, quick, stylish and are full of ACTION, which requires of the Player while fighting full concentration and gameplay skill, because you have to move in "Real Time Combat Systems" alot more, you must stay in "action" or you won't live long. Plus in Real Time Combat System, actions like avoiding Attacks and Spells from Foes or to parry or block physical Attacks of Foes play in such CS's a much bigger role in regard of player skill, because these actions has the player to perform then complety by his/herself, while fighting.
In Real Time Combat Systems you can't rely yourself just on you special abilities, that raise somehow the chance to block ect. no ,such skills would not exist in Real Time Combats.
When you want to block in soch CS's, then you have to do it with your character then MANUALLY and thats the difference, where Real Time CS will offer to the game a much bigger "player skill" , because when you're not ksilled enough to block and parry attacks of your foes in the right time or to avoid them, then you are simple not skilled enough and your enemies will have an easy game with you in battles, when you're unable to selfdefense you.

But also with GW2 becoming alot more improved in general movements (ie. jumping, swimming, crouching, climbing, diving, going, running, sliding ect.) there will receive Characters with that also alot more possible tactical Combat Moves, thigns like "rolling" you could use then to avoid for example enemies spells that thry to attack you from above, like an Elementalist tryign to cast a "Rock Fall" on you where some big Rocks would then fall down to you, you could avoid then the damage by quick rolling away to the sides, if your reflexes are good enough.
A Warrior inj heavy armor with a shield could then perhaps hold his Shield over his Head to at least reduce the damage, as when the Rock Fall hits you with its full power unprotected.

Characters in GW2 hopefully will receive alot more of these kind of mentionen possible interactive Actions, so that Combats in Guild Wars 2 will look alot more likely like some thrustworthy Combats full of Action, which make fun to look at, because of them beign stylish and quick and not so odd and boring again, like they are in GW1, where you have the feeling, that the Character Models all have for Combats just only like 2 Moves, which they permanetly repeat to death.

Upcoming F2P MMORPG's, like Evan Online show, how Combat Systems in Online RPG's can look stylish, quick and full of action in a full 3D World, where the Battle Fields can all be used to play with your Foes Soccer, if you own them so much, that they don't realize, what happens to them XD

There for example you can slash your foes down the cliffs and watch them, how they fall the cliff down, just to follow them then with a jump down and to hit them further in the air, while you both fall down, just to finish your foe then off with a mighty finisher to smack them down into the ground.
Such moves are stylish and full of action. But best are such action rpg's, when they show you also some little brutality - nothing wild and special, its completly enough, when Guild Wars 2 hopefully receives for those players which wish to have it in the options menu under graphics a point to activate "BLOOD". Hopefully so or so GW2 will become rated for 16 and not again for 12 >.> But even better would be benside a Blood Mode, also to hear Death Screams or so, when we kill something and creatues give out their last breath of life XD, before they collapse dead ^^ Thats style !!

Such a real time combat system with a full 360° turnable camera ist just absolute awesome, where you can then zoom in and out so much as you want or go even into ego sight, as you wish. Thats also somethign hopefully, that GW2 will receive, especially for the ranged class, where the player in GW2 has then also for more player skill to aim self, when you shoot. go then into Ego sight as Ranger and in regard of where you shoot and hit, your attacks will deal either normal damage or will be critical shots. Thats pure style and requires form the player also alot more skill to perform as ranger critical hits, as if you shoot in GW1 at your foes and doing crits relies just only on luck >.>. Relying just only on luck has NOTHING to do with Player Skill to me. Luck can have every stupid Noob >.<.

But also the Professions could become with such Combat Systems much more interestign and improves over the partly total crap concepts of them in GW1.

Assassins for example could be much more balanced through changing the Shadow Step Skills into Stealth Mode Skills, like the Rogues of Evan online work and giving other professions then some skills, with that they are able to detect hidden foes.

Elementalists hopefully could receive a much better way to perform their AoE Spells, that like in Ragnarok Online then for example, that the Elementalist when casting an AoE can choose while casting THE PLACE first, where exactly the aoE should be casted and not, that the spells will be like in GW1 all based on the stupid last location of the target. This Way would become AoE Spells alot more interactive with the general gameplay and would also receive a much better tactical aspect, when you could place AoE spells then exactly at points on the battle field to blockade with them for example for certain time ways.

Think for example an an Elementalist casting a Flame Wall at a paths end, which would blockade then the way. Enemies could go through the Flame Wall yes, but doing that would result in heavy damage per second then. Casting then such multiple walls after another would mean that you can blockade path with them theoretically ,because going through multiple walls would mean after some time death. Or insttead casting ice Walls, which would completly blockade a way and would force enemies first to whack the Ice Walls away to go further, so the Elementalist can win with such tactical Skilsl for its group perhaps some important time, while the Elementalist tries to block off the foes as long as possible.

Warriors in Combat would look much more stylish in battles with active parrying and blocking of physical attacks, when you see then, how 2 blades crush into each other and the sparks fly into the air and you hear the sound of the blades vibrating then.
The new movements would allow also such thigns for melee Classes, like Jump Attacks or rolling Thrust attacks .

I hope really the Combat System of GW2 will get improves into this direction.
No combat systems for MMO's are better, especially for RPG's, than Real Time Systems

moriz · Jun 30, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

sorry to burst your bubble, but the kind of things you are looking for won't happen.

1) too computer intensive, which will cut off a huge portion of the playerbase
2) seriously stupid. STEALTH? FIREWALLS? have you lost your mind?

Phoenix Tears · Jun 30, 2008, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

sorry to burst your bubble, but the kind of things you are looking for won't happen.

1) too computer intensive, which will cut off a huge portion of the playerbase
2) seriously stupid. STEALTH? FIREWALLS? have you lost your mind?

lol have you a clue XD Too computer intensiv *g* thats a good one :P

Do you really believe, that GW2 will run on the complete identical requirements of GW1. Hello?? In which Dream World do you live please ?
GW2 will be a complete new Game which will receive a complete different and new Engine, than the one GW1 has, with lots of Areas, that will be PERSISTENT !! Instanced Areas in GW2 will nearly not exists, with exception of only a few places maybe, where it makes more sense for a better gameplay to make areas instanced.

Alone this FACT will make the whole game alot more computer intensive, then GW1 would ever be. Alot people will not be able to play GW2, if they don't upgrade their PC's at least a little bit in kind of the Graphic Card and the amount RAM to have a game later, that will run fluid, that i can say you for sure.
If you think, you will be able to play later GW2 with the exact same settings of your ancient pc, that is now able to run GW1, then I'll be the one here, that will be sorry to burst your dream bubble.
I'm not sorry about it, when lots of people will leave the ship, if they don't like how GW2 will become, maybe then the game becomes again of its playerbase like GW1 was, when only Prophecies existed and the Game was complete fresh out XD ...

But the fact that the Games World will be ALOT persistent is not enough, the graphics will surely also improve a bit over the ones of GW1, when not, where is there then please the reason for a GW2, when the game gets not improved over the Prequel in all possible ways. That will make the game also more computer intensive, because thousands over thousands will surely then not be able to play GW2, cause of too old and weak Graphic Cards.

The games world will receive in GW2 a full 3D System, that will have this time then a Z-Axis that will allow GW2 to show us a much better 3D Flair, that is not just a fake, like in GW1, this will make also the game alot more Computer intensive, because the game has alot more to work to calculate the game World and its moving things in it, if Heigth and Depths will play in GW2 then a important role. really, you must be living in a Dream World, if you seem to believe, with GW2 will absolutely nothing change in its Computer Intensity over GW1 LOL
That to believe is somehow more naive, than just simple dumb.

Secondly:

Would you ever have seen a Game that uses Stealth Gameplay, then you would never set it into question now. lol That you do it just shows me, that you must have simple no experience with games, that use such a mechanic for Classes like Rogues or Assassins, where such a feature fits these professions very well. in regard of the dumb Assassins in GW1, which look through this silly Shadow Step feature more like Flies on the Flee from a Fly Clap, a Stealth Mode for the Assasins compared to that is alot more and better balanceable, then these retarded instant Warp-Skills, against that exist no protection. But against Enemies using Stealth Skills, there against exist easy Balancing - Detection Skills for Classes, like the Ranger, Elementalist, Monk or the Mesmer are easy ways to give these profession some tactical Anti-Skills against Assassins, that use Stealth Skills. With such Anti-Skills Stealth Skills are easily balanced, because so Stealth Assassins can't be perma invisible and have to fear ever, that someone could detect them. Such Anti Skills for Shadow Stepping instant Warps of assasins are compared to Stealth Skilsl impossible, because you can never predict it, when an Assassin targets you with a Shadow Step and will smack you after that then in an blink of an Eye with its deadly combination attacks.
Shadow Steps were ever from the begin on also in PvP way to overpowered. Remember the Problems of balancing PvP cause of Sins shadow Steppign to the Guild Lords instantly ? Guess not, otherwise you would not so QQ about Stealth Skills lol.

But to the next XD

When in GW1 exist Skills like Meteor Shower, then it will be easy for Anet to create for Elementalist also skills, like Flame/Ice Walls >.> Do you have any personal Problems with such Skills, or why do you make such a mess about them ? LOL I believe you made surely bad expeciences in other games with such Wall Skills and you just hate them XD *g*

Drakon[XIII] · Jun 30, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Ignoring Diablo 3 just for a minute. Can i track back up to the discussion regarding "dice rolling" or in game mechanics.

I cant see this dissapearing in GW2. I mean it adds to the realism of the game. That sounds a bit backward but its pretty accurate if you think about it. Chance is a major part of real life. If i were to swing a punch at somebody for example, there is a percentage chance my opponent would see it coming in time to block. Likewise there is a chance that he wouldnt or wouldnt react quick enough to block the blow. This is accurately represented in Guildwars (or near as it can be) with the current system. It is after all perfectly viable that two gladiators go into a fight, one having years of experience and the other guy a newbie. The pro could slip, loose balance or just be over confident and his opponent could score a lucky killing blow.

"dice rolling" represents chance, luck, lack of luck and circumstances beyond our control. Now where did i put that 20 sided dice and my dusty copy of AD&D volume 1???

Cheers

Drakon